If Trudeau was alive he'd run for the NDP: Layton
The socialist leader running against Dennis Mills,
the Forrest Gump of the Liberal Party
by Angelo Persichilli
THE HILL TIMES
If
Pierre Elliott Trudeau were alive, today "he¹d be running for
the NDP," says NDP Leader Jack Layton. The idea of Trudeau running
for the NDP might seem bizarre for some. But these days, anything is
happening in federal politics. Sheila Copps, for one, has lately been
toying with the idea of running as an NDP candidate, after she accused
senior Liberal organizers of rigging the rules to stop her from winning
the Grit nomination.
Layton has high hopes for the future of his party, and he is convinced
that in the upcoming federal election he can do much better than getting
the support of only 8.5 per cent of the electorate as in the 2000
election, although the most recent public opinion polls put his party at
15 per cent nationally which had not changed since October.
"Mr. Martin is a conservative leading the Liberal Party and, the
defections of MPs like Scott Brison and Keith Martin confirms just
that," he told The Hill Times in an interview in Toronto.
Mr. Layton said he believes that Canadian politics will soon be reduced to
a two-party system, with the New Democrats representing the left spectrum
of the new system, even though he prefers a proportional representation in
the House.
Mr. Layton also talked about his programs, his hopes, and his decision to
run in the riding of Toronto-Danforth to fight the incumbent and Liberal
MP Dennis Mills in a wide-ranging interview. He is a very active and
popular Member of Parliament, who, at times looks like the Forrest Gump of
the Liberal Party: always running for something he genuinely and
passionately believes but, at times, difficult for others to grasp.
Mr. Layton, you had a good conversation with Ms. Copps.
"Oh yeah, we had a good talk. I was calling because I was very
concerned the way the Liberal Party was treating her. I¹ve known
Sheila for many, many years. The Liberal Party is leaving behind people
who believed in the old Liberal Party of Trudeau and Pearson."
What did you tell her?
" ŒI need people like you. You and the people supporting you
must know that we have room for all of you there. People with your values
really belong to us now.¹"
And her answer was?
"She didn¹t give me a direct answer. We should be in
touch."
Talking about people on the left, within the Liberal Party. What are the
differences between you and Dennis Mills?
"The differences are really quite significant. He belongs to a party
now led by a very, very conservative leader. And, I believe even Dennis
recognizes that. I must say I was very surprised to see Dennis coming out
on the last day to support Paul Martin. The new Prime Minister is a
conservative leading the Liberal Party. And we can see it by the first act
in government. The first thing he did was to make sure that the big tax
cut went through. The impact on corporations, as of Jan. 1, is a tax cut
of $4.4-billion. That is not what a Liberal would do when the government
revenues are tight and we need to invest in our communities. He says that
it is complicated and we have no money when we talk about cities and
support for transportation and housing. How come he didn¹t say that
to corporate Canada, like Ontario Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty did?
That¹s the first difference between me and Dennis. He has chosen to
hang his hat on a political party which has expunged any of the
progressive elements that might have been there under Pierre Trudeau in
the early days. I joined the Liberal Party in 1968 in Québec, the
NDP barely existed there, and it was because of the idealism and the
sense, the sense of intervention, the minority government he formed with
the New democratic Party and David Lewis in 1972 that started our housing
program, the Foreign Investment Review, started an energy program for
Canada, a real sense of Canadian sovereignty: all of those ideas are
gone."
Is there anything more?
"In addition, we¹ve been working hard for the homeless and for
affordable housing and Dennis and I have taken a quite different position
on that. We need more shelters, we need affordable housing, and the people
in my riding feel that very strongly. Recently he has been opposing a
shelter in the area, one in particular I¹m trying to promote. We also
have differences on the Harbour Commission. We have differences in some of
those issues."
But he is very strong and respected in his riding. Wouldn¹t it be
better and easier for you to run elsewhere?
"I¹ve never considered that. I do not know why I should. I
believe that the Liberals in Toronto have been silent for years when it
comes to helping our city. They had some pr activity, but no Liberal
should be immune. They are all part of Paul Martin¹s team.
Furthermore, I¹ve my base of support in the area I¹ve
represented as has Dennis Mills."
Is it tougher to defeat Dennis Mills or Paul Martin?
"Martin, of course, is backed by a large corporate financial backing.
He has a war chest he has built as a result of that massive amount of
money, and he is the challenge. I¹m not running against Dennis Mills,
I¹m the leader of a national party and I am running against Paul
Martin."
If Pierre Trudeau was alive, would he vote for the Liberal Party?
"Not a chance. He would be running for the NDP. I have absolutely no
doubts about it. Look at the approach to immigration taken by our
government today, compared to what it was under Trudeau. I know about so
many people that have voted Liberal because they remember Trudeau as the
man who said, ŒWe want you all into the country.¹
Multiculturalism was celebrated. Now we see a completely different
attitude. Families have difficulty reuniting. We don¹t understand
that in many countries families are close. Maybe we are forgetting that in
North America."
Talking about family reunions, will your wife Olivia Chow run federally in
the Toronto riding of Trinity-Spadina and join you in Ottawa?
"There is a lot of speculation about that. Much will depend on how
things will unfold in the new council she is focusing and working very
hard on. Of course there are people who feel her voice in Ottawa would be
a powerful voice. She has to make that decision."
So, it is not ruled out.
"You will never rule things out in politics. In the next few months
we¹ll see."
Especially in Ontario, I see some friction amongst unions and the support
to the NDP. What¹s going on?
"I can only speak at the national level. There is a very, very strong
united view about the support for the New Democratic Party from the union
movement.
They have been financially supportive. Of course that came to an end on
Dec.
31."
Is it going to be hard on your organization?
"Financially it¹s definitely going to be hard for us. They were
used to back up our loans with the banks. Between 30 to 40 per cent of our
money would come from the unions."
But you are going to be more independent.
"Of course we will be much more independent and, in many ways, I
think that¹s good. However, I can tell you that the leadership of the
unions is supporting us."
You have been involved a lot in municipal politics. What are you going to
do, as a national leader, to help municipalities?
"Our job is to push the urban agenda to the forefront. Paul Martin
knows that. The main reason I was coming to Ottawa is because I was
watching these communities struggle, despite that they have many solutions
to propose and ideas to implement. The problem is that the resources aren¹t
there, just with the property tax. They collect 7 cents on every tax
dollar. Provincial and federal governments collect 93 cents. Yet,
municipalities are supposed to move you around, put a roof on your head,
educating your kids and more and more. They need resources. Look at other
countries, especially European countries. Financing municipalities is like
putting oil into the engine.
"Travelling in our cities, compared with what it was in the 1970s, it
is like night and day. With Paul Martin, we go nowhere. He is always a big
thinker, with big ideas and new deals. But when it comes down to actions,
it becomes always complicated. He says that we have to take a look at
this, we have to examine that. There is nothing complicated about giving
some gas tax, backing the cities for the transportation. Cities need to
have more capabilities and more powers. However, the bottom line is that
they need more money."
But municipalities respond to provinces, not to Ottawa.
"The federal government has to change the approach and recognize that
we have a national challenge: homelessness and affordable housing across
the
country: where is it going to be felt? In the cities and the people in the
cities know how to do this. Let Canadians go, they will accomplish great
things. This is what we have been saying for 10 years when Paul Martin was
Minister of Finance. He was telling us, ŒWe can¹t do anything
because we have no money.¹ But when he was faced with a surplus he
said he was going to use it for tax cuts. A very, very conservative point
of view. They believe in the magic of the private sector solving the
problems."
In which country do you see your idea of the socialism in action?
"We can have our own brand here in Canada. We have our history. We
have social democracy, democrat socialism emerges from Saskatchewan with
Tommy Douglas, and has already had a huge impact on Canada. When you ask
Canadians what they most like about their country, many will say the
medicare system:
that¹s a Canadian invention from the NDP. We have something to offer
to the other countries in terms of what we do here. Of course we can learn
a lot, from northern European countries like Sweden and Denmark,
especially in the energy and environment sectors. As for some of the
southern European socialist countries they are putting a huge emphasis on
culture and the arts. They see it as part of the infrastructure of a
successfully functioning city. We need to do that, in Canadian socialism.
We look at a new country leader like Lula in Brazil and what he is doing
around community democracy, and standing up to the Americans on trade
issues. They believe it is not just about squeezing as much money for the
multinationals, it¹s about fair trade, workers¹ rights, human
rights, labour standards, environmental standards. So, I can¹t give
you one example, but I thing we have the opportunity to draw our own
history."
Anything to borrow from Tony Blair?
"Of course I¹m extremely opposed to his stand on Iraq, but there
are some of public initiatives I really like, for example in health
care."
In many European countries, socialist parties are challenged by the Green
Party. Do you expect some of those challenges here in Canada?
"The best thing to do is to have a very strong environmental agenda.
And we do. I¹m pretty well-known for my position on environmental
issues. We already have the past national leader of the Green Party of
Canada and some of the senior executives, who have said, not because they
are critical of the Green Party, that it makes more sense to come and be
part of the Jack Layton New Democratic Party. And we, of course, make sure
that the agenda of the Green Party, within the NDP is strong. Second, the
old battles of the workers and the environmentalists have changed and they
work together a lot more."
Do you support the proportional representation and changing the voting
system, giving more voices to smaller parties?
"We very strongly support proportional representation which would
open the door for Canadians that felt we were not strong enough on one
issue to be supporting another party. This would generate a coalition
government which works extremely well in Europe. I am very disappointed
that Paul Martin did not support our motion on a referendum with Canadian
people on whether they would like to move to a proportional representation
system. If we were to be part of a minority government it would be the
first condition to hold a referendum on proportional representation."
